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If anything servitors are just placebo. I don't see why that wouldn't be feasible, at the very least.

well, look, here's my usual speel: I've never seen anything really coherent about what they are, how they work, or how to make one, and the fact that they were originally a metaphysical/magical concept, and that many practitioners seem to misunderstand how basic subconscious processes work, makes me highly suspicious. Also most discussion of them seems to fall into 3 categories: -Metaphysical stuff with little apparent connection to reality -As a largely hypothetical alternative to tulpas with none of the sticky moral issues -Complete misunderstandings of how unconscious mental processes work

3:16 AM

of course I'm not going to say they're impossible. But I've seen very little about them that I can take seriously.

Tulpas were part of a religion.

3:16 AM

Still are, really.

@The Heartstrong and before this becomes a stupid, pointless argument, I would recommend just talking to people in this community to see what their opinions are. DM a few people or send messages in channels like these about any little questions you have. You'll be able to peer into the waters without having to dive, y'know?

Yeah, I think talking to people one on one is better than seeing what kind of scuffle we get into on the beginner channel is going to net you.

Also, I feel the need to say that Tulpas are metaphysical with very little connection to reality too

3:18 AM

or atleast, that's how they started before this community got a psychological postulation to push it to what it is now

3:18 AM

and I'm a fucking delusion or something

Heh.

3:18 AM

You and me both.

I mean, the most that you can actually prove tulpas are thus far is a change in self-concept.

yes and the community has moved quite far since then @Kaliya

3:19 AM

whatever servitor communities exist... don't seem to

So has the use of servitors.

moved far in what? our delusion?

3:19 AM

how have we progressed from a postulation that this is barely plausible?

I don't see how attributing your actions to a non-sentient process is somehow less realistic than the idea that there is a separate thinking person inside your head.

I'm not going to argue with you that the more popular of the two practices is the better one. That's a stupid argument.

^also this. Popularity is not legitimacy or quality

I don't see much value in using a severtor, unless I am missunderstanding it seems just like a habbit personified, so why bother personifying it and just keep it as a habit?

Sometimes I don't feel like doing things.

If you can train up a mental habit to the point of thriving and growing into its own separate/sentient person, I don't see why you couldn't train up a mental habit to perform a certain task for you, and put some sort of name/face on it and call it a servitor

That's really why I have one.

3:21 AM

Laziness.

Same Breloom, I've never seen much use for it either (edited)

<Ponytail> it essentially is just for the ease of mind that a tulpa possessing brings, in my case

I'm not saying anything about popularity. There are tons of popular concepts that are stupid.

<Ponytail> Let's take something even less practical as an example though: Brimstone's music servitor

3:22 AM

<Ponytail> if you see it as a delusion, at worst it's a memory aid

The tulpa community at least has a general idea of what they're doing, why, and how. Servitors just seem to be a general concept people discuss for whatever reason.

Are you sure about that?

I don't see it brought up all that often

Last time I checked there's no definition for tulpa that would stand up to any research. (edited)

<Ponytail> if you ascribe agency to it, the bot itself is a recording of sorts. I don't know if you've ever performed, but you just sorta go with the flow with what you've practiced and at the end, no time has passed at all

I think it's falling out of style, compared to a few years ago

<Ponytail> so, it's similar to that

I think that we are going to need to all define what we think a severtor is before we will be able to have any meaningful discussion, it looks like everyone is talking around each other

<Ponytail> an autonomous, non-sapient, non-sentient thoughtform

created to perform a specific mental task

<Ponytail> sometimes

usually

<Ponytail> you have people who claim to make servitors who no longer serve a function or who were created to serve no function. I'm skeptical of those... but I'm skeptical of everything

If it doesn't do a specific mental task then how can it be automous without it also being sentient (edited)

Yeah I wonder what you do with a mental tool that sits in the garage too.

I largely imagine a servitor to be, at least in some cases, driven by instances where a person has some habit or trained reaction, along with the association of that habit or trained action to an identity. You run into a situation, you react in X way due to the habit, and you feel that that action was due to some other external person because that habit is associated with some form of identity.

That would just sound like characters to me then

There may be explanations alternative to that one, but that's at least one way I could see a servitor "work" (edited)

Alright it seems that we all agree on what a servetor is, now what was the disagreement?

"servitors are a meme" is about where things started

Well that isn't untrue, a meme is simply a thought that is contagious. And since servetors are talked about somewhat and that causes others to make them then they are kind of a meme

<Ponytail> let's not pretend tulpas are somehow magic in some extra capability though. Reguile, the same sort of mentality could be used to say we're merely masquerading as adorable anime girls and horses

He also said you should treat them as people

3:30 AM

Just.... no

<Ponytail> the weather is a meme

That is like saying an author has to treat their characters as people

It sure was today.

3:31 AM

Mmm, that's where I took issue, Apollo.

3:31 AM

Every stray thought that looks mildly like a "person" is suddenly a tulpa.

<Ponytail> J.K. Rofling does that

Authors tend to treat their characters like people. That's how you get realistic fiction.

Man without bduddy here it is difficult to find someone to take the other side of the debate :(

Too bad he has to be a mod in the other server.

Not to the degree of treating an actual tulpa like a person... ie not putting them through traumatizing storylines/scenarios But I digress

Well, there's some strange idea that you should be moral when dealing with tulpas, as opposed to characters. If you were moral to characters you'd give them happy lives. There would be no conflict, and every story requires conflict to qualify as a story. Essentially you'd be unable to morally have any story if you used the same rules with characters as you apply to tulpas.

<Ponytail> just throwing it out there, this is #tulpa-questions, not #our-awful-fanfics

...honestly, though, I love some good fun slice of life stuff where there is no conflicts and all the characters are happy

If characters were real, they wouldn't have any story at all, since I wouldn't want to put someone through a fake life, happy or not

I suppose that could be considered traumatic if it were expected to eventually live in the real world.

But if they were real I would just dissipate them, I don't need any more tulpas

I could think of at least one person who wouldn't mind having both.

when you see shit like Akagi's systemmate claiming she was a "servitor" after modding TC for a year I find it difficult to take the concept seriously.

Akagi is eh, an interesting case.

Akagi's system is a unique case that you probably shouldn't take to mean the whole

3:38 AM

all presidents are like Trump

She used to be one and became sentient, as far as I know

or the old "driving servitor"

that's the sort of logic you're functioning under

well, it's more that almost every case of people talking about "servitors" is seriously thonk

3:38 AM

not just the one

I imagine you're thinking of Aigis too

I've had a servitor for eleven years and she's been fine that whole time.

oh yeah her too

You sound like the people you ban from TC for shitting on the concept of tulpas.

Something like a driving servitor sounds like autopilot you're putting a special name to

Not that people don't try to make me turn her into a tulpa for "moral" reasons.

as opposed to more classical servitors that actually follow our provided definition, like Brimstone's

I was going to say, this is reading like me on a bad day.

speaking of Brimstone, @Vampurica may have a few words on this. @Raven is online more so I'll ping her too

People in the tulpa community are used to treating things in their heads as being separate from them, it would make sense if they treat an autopilot habit as separate from them too

sigh I'll stop. It's just... so much of the discussion on servitors is so nonsensical to me. Yes, way more than discussion about tulpas. Some of it has rather unfortunate implications even. I'm willing to believe in them, I'd just like to see something more solid than what exists around them already. But obviously this isn't going anywhere for right now.

If something is not a part of any established systemmate, is not self-aware, but does in fact produce thoughts and behaviors, what is it? (edited)

Define produce thoughts and behaviors.

3:42 AM

Data does that within specific limits.

it is... a normal part of the mind? what distinguishes a "servitor" from normal human behavior in the first place?

Your brain stimulating thoughts/behaviors for you for your own convenience/entertainment

Thoughts that can be heard or sensed by the others, in a similar manner to a tulpa's.

I tend to think of any defined identity without a will of its own as a servitor.